Just Try To Tell Me This Isn’t Racism

June 23, 2008 in Against Racism, Poverty, and War

Racist Obama button

for sale at the Texas State Republican Convention.

Hat tip: Terry

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27 comments

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June 23, 2008 at 10:18 pm

Meander

disgusting. yes racism is alive and well isn’t it?

June 23, 2008 at 10:28 pm

helenl

Oh yes.

June 24, 2008 at 10:51 am

Karen Hopper

I find this very offensive and disgusting. When I first saw the button, I couldn’t believe it was for real but then in thinking, realized that we are still a nation of racism. It is sad and flat wrong.

June 24, 2008 at 10:55 am

helenl

Karen, Happily John McCain spoke out against this button. And now someone said the profits go to charity. They should go the Barack Obama. Yes, racism is alive and well.

June 24, 2008 at 11:02 am

renaissanceguy

Yes, it is racism. It is vile and disgusting.

Is there still racism in America–yes and among all races. There’s white racism and black racism and many other kinds. I deplore them all.

I think it is an exaggeration for Karen Hopper to say that we are a nation of racism. Where does that put her and you?

I’m part of this nation and I’m not a racist. I hate racism.

June 24, 2008 at 11:09 am

helenl

RG, Racism is prejudice against the people of another race plus the power to keep them as an underclass. Everything else is just plain prejudice. This is why white people (in American with our national racial history, including slavery and Jim Crow) are racist and blacks are not. This is not to say blacks are incapable of racism under other circumstances. Of course they are. Human nature is human nature. But in the US, white people are the racists, because we have the political and economic power (as a group, not necessarily as individuals) to keep black people poorer than we are (on the average).

I’d say, if that’s so, you are a “recovering racist.” That’s what I call myself. And I use every opportunity to fight racism, including the opportunity to vote for a black man for president who is liked by black people. Saying, “I hate racism” isn’t enough. Fight it.

June 24, 2008 at 11:37 am

renaissanceguy

I fight racism by not practicing it myself.

I fight racism by teaching my children that it is wrong.

I fight racism by calling people on it when they express it. (I have been threatened with physical harm on one occasion for doing so.)

———————————-

Since I have never been a racist, I cannot be a recovering racist. I was taught from infancy that it is wrong to judge anyone based on race or to treat anyone of a different race badly. My ancestors never owned slaves, and some of them worked for the abolition of slavery and fought for the Union in the Civil War.

My great-grandparents worked for awhile as servants for a wealthy black couple from Jamaica. My grandfather was a chauffer and my grandmother was a maid. They felt absolutely nothing inherently wrong with the situation.

My parents had black friends, including a couple of inter-racial couples. That was in the northeast where people tended to be more liberal about such things. I went to fully integrated schools from the very first day.

When we moved to the rural south, my parents invited black friends over to our house, despite being warned that it would ruin their reputations in the white community. Some of my best friends there were black, and I mean that literally–not as a cliche.

My favorite teacher in high school was my black biology teacher who taught all of us that hard work was the key to success, and her own children have proven it by being very successful in business and professional sports. They are a lot richer than I am.

——————————-

Enough tooting my own horn. I’m sorry but I will not feel guilty about things I have not done. You can feel guilty about whatever you want. Maybe you were a racist in the past, and if so, I am happy that you have seen the light.

June 24, 2008 at 12:26 pm

helenl

RG, I was never an overt personal racist. I grew up in a small town with few blacks. I didn’t know black people. I felt exactly the way you do now: “I’m sorry but I will not feel guilty about things I have not done. ”

But you know what, that’s Western thought: It all about the individual not about the group. There is individual racism, and there is also systemic racism. The group is guilty; we belong to the group; we are, therefore, guilty of racism. That’s what we must fight.

June 24, 2008 at 9:18 pm

renaissanceguy

Helen, I’m trying to hear you. I really am. I admire your passion and believe that you are motivated by a desire to please God and to do what is right. For that I will seriously consider what you say.

I’m willing to say that there has been systemic racism in America, and that there still is. I am willing to say that generally “white” people have been the perpetrators and non-white people have been the victims. It has been the legacy of our European ancestors’ feelings of superiority, and it is flat out immoral.

However, where I think you and I disagree is on the following points.

1. Progress has been made. Slavery is over. Segregation is officially over. Black people vote. At least one black person in America is so wealthy that she could probably buy several African nations, if she wanted to and they let her. What I would like to see and hear sometimes is a celebration of how far we as a nation have come, in addition to how far we have to go.

2. There are degrees of racism. Telling an occasional racist joke is bad, but it is not in the same league as dragging someone behind a truck. When white people are called racists, I know that some of them resent being lumped together with those who literally hate black people and would do them harm.

3. Having white guilt perpetuates racism, because it supports the idea that skin color itself has some kind of binding ability among people. Tell that to the people of Northern Ireland or the folks in the former Yugoslavia.

Just because I am white does not mean that I am responsible for anything that any white person has ever done. And if it did, it should work in the positive direction as well as in the negative. What about the white people who participated in the Underground Railroad or who marched in the Freedom Marches? Do I get to take credit for what they did, or must I and my chidlren be forever saddled with what our forbears did wrong? (None of which our actual ancestors did, as they were poor white farmers who were against slavery by virtue of their beliefs.)

And specifically in America, where do later immigrants fit in? What about European immigrants who came in the 20th Century? Are they to blame for slavery in America? Many of them were discriminated against, too. How does that fit into the equation?

June 24, 2008 at 10:01 pm

helenl

Okay, RG.,

!. Yes, progress has been made. Yes, slavery is over. Yes, segregation is officially over. Yes, black people vote.

In 1964, Martin Luther King Jr. wrote Where Do We Go From Here? Community or Chaos in which he stated that progress was the goal for white people, but blacks want equality.

We have progress. We have met the white people’s goal. Say for argument’s sake we’re 80% white, 20% black. We just met the goal for 80%. That’s a C.
YEA!!!!! (That’s your celebration.) Now, let’s get to work on the goal of equality.

2. Yes, there are degrees of racism.

Don’t you just hate it when the preacher lumps all us sinners together? You know we who spoke ill against our neighbor just got “lumped together with” those who committed adultery or worse. Then the preacher has the audacity to say we can all be forgiven the same way. . . . Well, resent away!

A sinner is a sinner, and racist is a racist.

Of course, there are degrees. And different degrees produce different acts that have different consequences. Yes. But just as all sin is bad, so is all racism.

3. I am talking about American racism of white over black. I am not talking about Northern Ireland. The situation is different there. This is a diversion from the task: to do away with racism in the US now.

You are not “responsible for anything that any white person has ever done.” But “no man is an island.” I AM my neighbor’s keeper. There is such a thing as collective guilt.

There have always been white people who struggled with blacks for their freedom, for justice, for equality. They have been in the minority. To study a social condition of any kind, one must look for patterns (for the norm not the exceptions). Does that negate the exceptions? The good? NO. NO. NO.

But no, you don’t get any credit for what they did. Not any more than you get punished for personally owning slaves or lynching someone. You didn’t do either.

What you are guilty of, like any other white American who isn’t actively fighting racism, is remaining silent, while racism continues. Someone said, “”All it takes for evil to triumph, is for good men to do nothing.” Sources disagree about said this, but who isn’t my point.

Immigrants who remain silent, while benefiting from being white, are as guilty as the rest of us. Why not? You get a new country, you get the history, too.

It’s easy to become a recovering racist, rather than an active one. Confess any racism as a sin. Receive forgiveness from God. And start listening to black people. They do know what they want.

June 25, 2008 at 2:11 am

renaissanceguy

Helen, I really am paying attention.

I don’t think that King should have knocked progress (except when white people were using the concept to justify the status quo). Many goals are accomplished little by little. Progress is always better than regress or even stagnation.

I also think it’s obvious that black people have achieved legal equality. We wouldn’t even be talking about Obama’s presidential campaign if that weren’t true. Oprah Winfrey and Sheila Johnson would not be billionaires. Condoleeza Rice would not be the Secretary of State. Tiger Woods would not be a golf champion.

As for other kinds of equality, that was bound to be an uphill climb, and thankfully the climb is continuing. The success of the people mentioned above, and others, is helping to make it continue.
———————————————————

“There is such a thing as collective guilt.”

Because you say so? The only way that I can understand collective guilt is in a situation in which the act was committed collectively. For example, if I am a member of a club that votes unaimously to exclude black people, then we are collectively guilty. If, on the other hand, I voted to include black people, then I would not feel guilty. Even more so, if I happened to be superficially like the members of the club, then I would feel absolutely no guilt about what those people did. And I would resent being compared to them.

————————————

“To study a social condition. . .”

Ah, that’s definitely where you and I fundamentally differ. I don’t care as much about a social condition as I do about individual people. The very concept of “society” is a social construct that seems to me to have little meaning. Each person or self-identified group is responsible for their own lives and actions, and should be evaluated accordingly.

If some drunken bum knocked me over at a NASCAR race, I promise that I wouldn’t hold it against you or against the sport. If you were to ever harm me, I promise not to hold it against all women or against all Democrats.
———————————————————–

“What you are guilty of, like any other white American who isn’t actively fighting racism, is remaining silent, while racism continues.”

Which I think translates in your mind to my being a Republican rather than a Democrat. As I told you I haven’t exactly been silent about racism. Neither have I been an activist.

Frankly, with the opportunities that abound, I pretty much expect my black friends and neighbors to fend for themselves. (Not that I wouldn’t help a friend or neighbor in need, and I have. But my general philosophy is that we should each strive to live our own lives and take care of ourselves and our families.)
———————————–

“And start listening to black people.”

See, there you go again. I do listen to black people. I listen to Walter Williams and Thomas Sowell and Star Parker and Kay Coles James and my high school biology teacher and Alan Keyes and Janice Rogers Brown. The problem is they are not black people of which you approve. So they don’t count.

They tell a different story from Jeremiah Wright and Barack Obama and Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. Therefore, they are labeled with all sorts of names that I won’t repeat.

But, once again, it proves that we are not really talking about race.

June 25, 2008 at 10:14 am

helenl

Well RG,

RE: “I don’t think that King should have knocked progress (except . . . ” What do you think the Civil Rights Movement was about?

Why do you think BLACK PEOPLE CHOSE KING as one of the movement leaders? Or did they? Was he thrust into that position that he’d rather not have had? He just wanted to be a preacher, while he finished his dissertation. Then maybe teach? But no.

Have you ever heard of the Kitchen Table encounter? I can’t quote my entire thesis here, but I’ll cut a bit.

Chapter 1
The Power of a Mystical Moment

“On 27 January 1956 Martin Luther King, Jr. felt the pressure he did not want to feel reach its overwhelming culmination. During the last few days, he had been unable to share his thoughts, even with his wife. Awakened by a phone call from an angry man who screamed that “he’d be sorry he ever came to Montgomery,” King was shaken. Calls like this were coming more often now. The voice on the line addressed him only as “nigger” and told him that if he did not leave town in three days someone would “blow his brains out.” Thinking of his wife and newborn daughter Yolanda, King did not know what to do: he was afraid and could not sleep, so he paced the floor. Reaching the “saturation point,” he stood over the kitchen table and prayed out loud, “I have nothing left. I can’t face it alone.” Then King heard the voice of God, telling him he must stand for what is right; he “experienced the presence of the Divine as never before,” and an “inner voice” gave him courage and “quiet assurance.” Martin found, in that long-awaited moment, the “power” that his father, Daddy King, said, “could make a way out of no way.” Religion became “real” for Martin Luther King, Jr., and he would never forget it. Until this day, “conversion” had never been “abrupt” for King: he had never experienced the “crisis moment.”

Now he had—in a mystical encounter. . . . ”

From Helen Losse,”Making All Things New: The Redemptive Power of Unmerited Suffering In the Life and Works of Martin Luther King Jr.” Master’s thesis, Wake Forest University (2000).

King was called by God to do the job he did. And was martyred trying to get it done. How can we question that that job was to lead his people to equality when he stated clearly that it was?

Or, read King “Letter from the Birmingham Jail,” (1963) http://www.mlkonline.net/jail.html which was addressed to six white clergymen, in which he says, “We know through painful experience that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. Frankly, I have yet to engage in a direct-action campaign that was “well timed” in the view of those who have not suffered unduly from the disease of segregation. For years now I have heard the word “Wait!” It rings in the ear of every Negro with piercing familiarity. This “Wait” has almost always meant ‘Never.” We must come to see, with one of our distinguished jurists, that “justice too long delayed is justice denied.”

We have waited for more than 340 years for our constitutional and God-given rights. ”

It’s now been 42 more years (since this letter was written). And still progress is enough.

“King shouldn’t have knocked progress,” you say, even though as he said, it doesn’t do any good to have the right (legally) to sit down at a hamburger counter, if you don’t have the money to buy a hamburger. Laws without economic progress are a job unfinished. Progress is not the goal (though it is a step); It is NOT THE GOAL. The goal is equality.

I spent two years researching for and writing my thesis. And I cannot (and will not) print it all here on my blog. You can get it though library loan, if you really want to read it.

There is collective guilt because God will judge the nations. See Revelation.

Please bear in mind that I once (for a few years) was a registered Republican. Church folk had convinced me that was the way to go. But church folk were wrong.

Then I had my own Kitchen table experience before I ever read anything by King. Sitting in my kitchen drinking coffee and reading the paper one Saturday morning, I “happened on” a book review of “Days of Grace” the autobiography of African American tennis champion Arthur Ashe. When I read the answer to his question about having AIDS not being the hardest thing he ever had to face, I was stunned. No, facing Aids was not the hardest thing. The hardest was “being black.”

I thought the Civil Rights Movement had done its job, but I was wrong. The movement got the laws changes. Racism – the cause of those Jim Crow laws – still raged on. But now I knew God wanted me to spend the rest of my life fighting that evil. And do, I will.

It’s like hearing the gospel. You have a choice what you do with it. You can find out more or let “progress” be enough.

Not everyone get a mystical moment.

Emphasis mine.

June 25, 2008 at 12:09 pm

Mike Lovell

“Racism is prejudice against the people of another race plus the power to keep them as an underclass. Everything else is just plain prejudice.”

Is not prejudice evil in all forms, whether it comes with or without power?
Is a lesser evil any better than a greater evil? Shouldn’t our mission be to stamp out all forms of prejudice, not just racial prejudice practiced by those in power?

“But no, you don’t get any credit for what they did. Not any more than you get punished for personally owning slaves or lynching someone. You didn’t do either.”

So how too can one be considered a recovering racist, while not getting credit for possibly being the descendant of those in the minority who fought alongside blacks in the Civil Rights Movement at any stage of its existence? You say that WE (later generations) do not get credit for it, and conversely we do not get credit for owning or lynching slaves and/or other blacks. Yet, you label us with the moniker of one who is guilty by labeling us as recovering racists, thereby conferring credit upon us in the form of blame, merely for having been born descendants of a particular race.
The contradictions of a perceived duality confuse me highly. Like you said, there are more questions in life than answers, but I think this one might be something to delve into, as it might come with answers that can more clearly define our roles, in relation to your labeling of white people in a stereotypical fashion. After all, at least in my humble opinion, the first step toward breaking barriers is to fight off stereotyping. For as long as they exist, the greater problem can not be overcome, and often perpetuates, if not emboldens, the problem to a greater level of emotional involvement, which then leads to higher level of sensitivity on all sides to perceive even the smallest thing to be bigger or more meaningful than its actual intent, sparking greater divide and greater controversy. (whew..that was a mouthful) That controversy can only be overcome one of two ways, either through a true power struggle, which often manifests itself physically (ie- war, violence), or must be regressed back to the original point of intersection, requiring the same path advanced to be retraced backwards until compromise, or emotional and logical reasoning, can be reached (ie-diplomacy).

June 25, 2008 at 12:39 pm

helenl

Hi Mike,

RE: “s not prejudice evil in all forms, whether it comes with or without power?”

Of course it is.

But should I clean you up before I clean myself? Should white people clean black people before they clean themselves?

Black people have their tasks. White people have theirs.

There is a difference in stereotyping and knowing who you are.

RE: “That controversy can only be overcome one of two ways, either through a true power struggle, which often manifests itself physically (ie- war, violence), or must be regressed back to the original point of intersection, requiring the same path advanced to be retraced backwards until compromise, or emotional and logical reasoning, can be reached (ie-diplomacy).”

Okay, take that power struggle. Blacks aren’t going back. And if it “manifests itself physically,” which will happen eventually unless we change things, you’re gonna look back and hear Jeremiah Wright saying, “God damn America,” and see that it happened. God is on the side of freedom and justice and love.

The prophets keep warning us.

June 25, 2008 at 1:03 pm

Mike Lovell

Hi Mike,

“RE: “s not prejudice evil in all forms, whether it comes with or without power?”

Of course it is.

But should I clean you up before I clean myself? Should white people clean black people before they clean themselves?

Black people have their tasks. White people have theirs.”

So then I would also retort, should black people wait to clean themselves only after white people have cleansed themselves first? Should this not be one on equal footing, that progresses at an equal pace? Or should only the goal, not the march to it, be the mark of equality? As I see it, to ask of others completions of tasks as conditions to one’s own actions in and of itself would be unequal.

“Blacks aren’t going back.” –obviously I don’t mean back to slavery, or anything like that, which would be absolutely wrong, and would undoubtedly lead the opposite direction toward said physically violent struggle–but through the arguments that have often been sparked by comments made by the fringe elements from each respective “camp”, that have sparked further divide.
As an example… One white hotel worker recently used the statement “You people” when complaining that this particular black man wasn’t going to his room as part of a hotel policy to limit noise complaints.
(back story, we had athletes in town for a game early the following morning. We also had a rap artist, entourage, and many friends, family, and fans of this artist booked there…who showed up at 2am, in full party mode..bad choice of booking combinations by the hotel management, especially considering my security company is the on-site enforcers of hotel policy)
At the mention of the phrase “you people”, the black gentleman immediately became incensed at such a racially charged statement. He was however cut off after a short tirade, when she made it very clearly known that she was married to a black man, and had 2 kids with him..that the race card wasn’t to be played, because “you people” meant the people with the rap party that continued to come out of their rooms and literally yell across the atrium at each other awakening other people staying there for the evening.
But there was a short period of serious tension between a few of this party, and this hotel worker, with a few of us white security guards stuck in the middle. All because of a certain phrase. A rather inocuous one in my mind, but apparently not so innocuous in this guy’s head. Taken wrong because of personal circumstance, intentionally, or merely by accident? I don’t know…
This is what I mean by going back to the point of intersection. That all points must be evaluated back to the point before a direct conflict occurred, as in isolated incidences. As I see it, containing the small incidences will do well to disarm the creation of big incidents, for nothing big can come without anything small.

June 25, 2008 at 1:18 pm

helenl

RE: “should black people wait to clean themselves only after white people have cleansed themselves first? Should this not be one on equal footing, that progresses at an equal pace? Or should only the goal, not the march to it, be the mark of equality? As I see it, to ask of others completions of tasks as conditions to one’s own actions in and of itself would be unequal.”

White people should want equality because it is right, Mike. What black people do is their business. Equality is the goal. We aren’t there yet. But if you mean, should the end justify the means? The civil rights movement always called for the end to be a part of the means. That’s why King became a pacifist. Peace ends come through peaceful means.

The use of “you people” in your illustration is an example of point of view. The term seemed “innocuous” to you. But if you’d heard it used against you racially time after time, not so. Racism is alive and well in this country. A black person who hasn’t had the n- word used against him/her is still in his/her cradle.

We just don’t know the frustration that exists being a black person in America. Listen to what Arthur Ashe said, “being black is the most difficult thing.” Should it be difficult to wear one’s own skin?

June 25, 2008 at 1:34 pm

Mike Lovell

“White people should want equality because it is right, Mike. What black people do is their business.”

Yes we should want equality because it right. I absolutely agree. What I don’t agree with, is seeing that one race should be held entirely accountable for this situation to be resolved. Both parties have to be resolute in the mission. If the only way to equality is full compromise by one side, then in fact there has been an inequity in the process. Where does the compromising stop? Should we (strictly white people) be taxed extra to help pay some form of reparation to every member of the black populace? And if so, when do we end? DO we continue to provide a set amount for man, woman and child until every living one has been paid a settlement amount, which would in turn be in perpetuity until the end of time given birth rates? Do we disband all possesions, and then assign them off until blacks are equally represented with mansion dwelling, townhome dwelling, etc etc.? If I work really hard and manage to save up a million dollars, do I have “x” amount taken away and given to the black people who live in my neighborhood. However, if one or two of the black people in my neighborhood make a million bucks apiece, they aren’t required to share with me?
I ask this last double question, because if I’m required to do something in the name of equality, and yet I am to leave them to make their own decisions. That the burden shall lie on my shoulders until they decide I have paid my debt off for a white society that wronged a black society prior to any of the invlved parties being alive?

And also, in respect to what blacks do is their own business…..and hearing the “n-word”, most blacks hear the “n-word” in whatever connotation from other blacks, be it in music, movies, their own family and friends. I know its hard to police language and all, but beings it is considered a derogatory term, and has connotation, even within the friendly uses of the term between two blacks, might be the tie that binds thm to maintaining a lower status, when connected with their self-esteem, be it individually or collectively.

June 25, 2008 at 1:42 pm

helenl

From another thread, “I don’t mean to be all over the place, or sound ignorant. But you are the more educated one, and if my dad did teach me one thing, besides READ, is to pick the brains of someone who is smarter than you…and well, here you are!”

It’s time to stop for a while. Your responses are getting full of excuses. You have plenty to think about. And you don’t have to end up agreeing with me. More later.

June 25, 2008 at 11:50 pm

ymarsakar

I ask this last double question, because if I’m required to do something in the name of equality, and yet I am to leave them to make their own decisions. That the burden shall lie on my shoulders until they decide I have paid my debt off for a white society that wronged a black society prior to any of the invlved parties being alive?

Given that whites are superior in helen’s eyes, that is the right way to change things.

The fact that a white recognizes and benefits from their superiority, yet isn’t willing to pay the noblesse oblige price of the white man’s burden, really is an excuse to maintain power on an unequal basis. Since all power and wealth comes from whites, it is the whites that must provide it to the blacks.

This is all very logical and to be expected of socialism when applied to blacks or black liberation theology.

June 26, 2008 at 10:23 am

helenl

Hi Y.,

Glad you came to my blog. By way of explanation, I had every intention of replying to Mike’s comment today. We’d been commenting back and forth for almost two hours and also the previous day (here and on another thread), and I thought it was time for a break.

From what I’ve seen many conservatives just want to call people names rather than finding out what makes them tick and if there’s any truth in what more liberal thought has to offer.

Now, as to whites being superior to blacks, that’s the position of racism: the exact opposite of what I believe, which is what happens when people keep asking nit picky questions instead of taking the main ideas of the whole and studying for themselves. There’s clearly a difference in trying to learn one’s point of view and trying to prove one wrong. I had lots of time for the former and little for the latter.

The reason I fight racism (which I do because I am a committed Christian) is that I believe that the position of blacks is morally stronger than that of the white majority, when blacks fight with the tools of non-violence. I believe equality will come, but how it comes is very much up to the white majority (because they are the majority). If it comes to violence, which it may do, that will be the fought of whites who waited to long to act.

Main Point: Creating equality through cooperation is morally stronger than creating an underclass through unfair competition.

Blacks have been extremely patient in their wait. But the time for equality will come. I say, let’s make it now. Lets’ end racism non-violently. Let’s don’t tear up our nation in the process. If riots come, white people will lose personal property, black people will lose personal property, and we will all lose public property, including building and such of historical importance.

And noblesse oblige is Faulkner. Let’s not go there.

As to socialism: I think I. Obama. black theologists, King, etc. have certain socialist leanings. But none of us are true socialists. However, just as Obama is, in some ways, using “by any means necessary,” so will the others (except King, who’s no longer alive, and therefore, not subject to change). I am not (and do not think Obama is and Democrats are) committed to replacing capitalism with socialism and certainly not with communism.

Creating an even playing field (where all can compete) demands a re-distribution of wealth. It means all Americans (and I’m talking here about Americans first because we are Americans) will come up to minimum standards of food, shelter, health care, etc. Should we care about people in other countries? Yes. But it’s our money. Conservatives are fond of saying it’s their money (rob the rich to pay the poor) but it isn’t: Taxes become public monies.

And what about the national debt? It’s so stupid big we don’t even get it. And we don’t even know what we got for it. So why not run it up 100,000 trillion more and have decent homes, food and health care for everyone? See how silly it gets.

That’s because we don’t want to solve the problem. That’s because lots of people don’t even think it’s a problem. Racism continues to hurt people year after year, and we refuse to consider it real, because we won’t listen to what black people have to say.

**

Hi Mike,

Yes. Both parties must be involved. Otherwise it isn’t a discussion. I think white leaders and black leaders (and that will include Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton) have to sit down and formulate a plan. How do we know what black people want, if we don’t ask them? Congress has to instigate the plan, of course. I don’t think blacks want to be “victims” forever. I think they want whites to share the power: legally and economically, so that blacks no longer feel second class.

“Feel” is a dangerous word. But it is involved, so we have to deal with it. We can’t go back to the beginning. We don’t even know where the beginning is. This is not about gathering all possessions in the US and dividing them up. It’s about making sure old black people see doctors when they need to and that young black people get access to education and jobs. This is not about making lazy people work either. Maybe that verse should really be “The lazy you will always have with you.” Not the poor.

An official apology for slavery must be forthcoming. That should be obvious. Reparations need not mean a given dollar value to each black person. We’re way beyond “forty acres and a mule,” but it should mean opportunity for those who need it. Either education or money to start a business or a down payment on a house. Just as a re-distribution means more tax for the wealthy (not a certain number of dollar per person), it will also mean more help to those black (and poor) people who need it. There are too many details for anyone to figure out in advance of action.

The question is not, what will it cost to do this ? but, what will it cost not to do it?

As to the n- word, white people need to use it NEVER, and black people need to police it themselves. I am not so much concerned with black people’s actions as I am white people’s actions.

Oh, and none of this means we should develop personal relationships with individual people of other races (and religions). In reality, we break down hatred one heart at a time.

June 26, 2008 at 11:05 am

Mike Lovell

“Reparations need not mean a given dollar value to each black person. We’re way beyond “forty acres and a mule,” but it should mean opportunity for those who need it. Either education or money to start a business or a down payment on a house.”

—Email me on this one at my personal email address. I wanted to chat with you on one of these issues specifically. Positively, proactively, personally.

June 26, 2008 at 11:18 am

helenl

Done, Mike.

June 26, 2008 at 12:59 pm

Mike Lovell

I’ve sent my reply

June 26, 2008 at 5:22 pm

ymarsakar

Now, as to whites being superior to blacks, that’s the position of racism: the exact opposite of what I believe

Since you have mentioned systemic racism and how blacks are being kept downtrodden by the system, which is run by whites, how then would you explain why blacks are not favored but whites are? You do, after all, believe in white privilege, which is part of systemic racism in your view, which is why you wish to end systemic racism because you don’t believe whites are inherently superior, they just got more wealth and status by stealing it from blacks or what not.

So, if in your view, blacks and whites are equal, you have to provide a reasonable explanation of how whites got power in the first place over blacks. And you also have to provide a justification for, if whites and blacks are equal, why blacks need the help of whites to tilt the system in favor of blacks by turning government intimidation and power on other whites and blacks.

In all your descriptions and support of Obama, you believe that it is the system, the government, or white Democrats that can equalize things. True equality only comes about if whites and blacks are equal and neither are given an advantage. Yet you see equality has been achievable by taking from whites and distributing to blacks. If blacks were really as equal as whites, they wouldn’t need such a “handicap”. The idea of a handicap is one is superior to the other and thus needs to be brought down a bit to make things equal.

So when you say that you don’t believe in racism, the inherent superiority or inferiority of a person or nation based upon color, your actions directly contradict this belief of yours.

The reason I fight racism (which I do because I am a committed Christian) is that I believe that the position of blacks is morally stronger than that of the white majority, when blacks fight with the tools of non-violence.

You think the machinations of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, the race baiters and black overseers of this generation, to be “non-violent”? Violence takes many more forms than just the physical.

I believe equality will come, but how it comes is very much up to the white majority (because they are the majority).

The idea that numbers provide superiority or power is a thing of majority rule, which is just another way of saying rule by the 1%. As for the majority having the power to vote in change here in America, that is due not to numbers but to the system. The system that you believe was conceived in sin in America. The very system which provides a way for blacks to be “morally superior” without being “submersed in the ground” is also the system you seek to change if not destroy. A rather extreme bit of irony.

If it comes to violence, which it may do, that will be the fought of whites who waited to long to act.

When the responsibility for individual or group actions comes from whites, this means whites have the morally superior position, for it is they who are responsible for actions, bad or good.

When blacks are not responsible for actions, yet have some kind of “moral superiority”, this just means they are protected and given power and privilege by the whites, who are responsible people, for good or ill.

Main Point: Creating equality through cooperation is morally stronger than creating an underclass through unfair competition.

Once fake liberals find a way to repeat Johnson’s Great Society without creating an underclass of blacks through unfair competition, then maybe you can speak about having this “main point” of yours. But until then, you do not have it. It is a fiction, cause it doesn’t exist and it has never existed in Democrat history in their dealings with blacks.

Besides, you answer “unfair competition” with “we’re going to redistribute white wealth and be even more unfair”. That’s not really a solution people should get, since it starts the cycle of oppression and once it is started, it doesn’t end unless with a war. Like the Civil War.

Lets’ end racism non-violently.

That’s like saying let’s end hate non-violently. Let’s also end love non-violently. Let’s even end jealously and arrogance non-violently. You cannot remake human nature in your own image, especially when your own image, your values and your basic human nature, is not modifiable anyways.

Racism will end when everyone is of the same race and there will be no outward signs that they might be perceived to be a difference race. Racism wil lend, thus, when everyone has the same features, same hair color, same tone of skin, same tone of tan, same height, and so forth.

If you want to end racism, you should be realistic about your goals and your chances of accomplishing it. Otherwise it becomes a perpetual justification for injustice and redistribution of wealth. For if ending racism will take forever, then obviously the fight to create equality will also take forever, no? A never ending cycle of power and intimidation based upon a never ending cycle of justification and excuses, is not what humanity should build for their children.

Creating an even playing field (where all can compete) demands a re-distribution of wealth.

Conservatives, Republicans, or classical liberals don’t really choose to live in a world where there is a zero sum policy. We would rather create wealth and create an even playing field by allowing people to take personal risks to create wealth for themselves and everyone else, than to live in a world where the only way to get rich and powerful quickly is to steal power and wealth from others.

Obviously if there is only one pie in existence and that pie is the only food that will ever exist, I’m going to have to kill the people competing with me and cheat, cause I can win in no other way. Now if there is a way to bake more pies and to perpetually create the ingredients for the baking of pies, then I no longer have to cheat and exploit to win, I can specialize and use hard work, in cooperation with others, to get my slice of the pie. In fact, I’ll probably get more than just a slice, but many many pies. This is far better than a world that says “you have one pie and that will be it, until eternity ends”.

So no, creating an even playing field where all can compete doesn’t demand a re-dstribution of wealth. Re-distribution of wealth from those that have it to those that don’t inevitably creates crime, chaos, death, violence, oppression, and misery. The poor will cheat the rich and the rich will cheat the poor, for they then become eternal threats to the other via the class warfare engendered by Marxism.

It’s one thing to say you don’t want to convert America to socialism, it is quite another thing to think that after pitting rich against poor, white against black, that you can stop the march of socialism. Socialism is inevitable once class warfare begins, once it is fueled by redistribution of wealth.

Yes. But it’s our money.

So you’re going to redistribute your own money and that’s it? You won’t use the power of government to redistribute other people’s money, because it won’t really be their money now will it.

You have got to be a bit more serious here.

Taxes become public monies.

So it’s not the money of America going to pay UN peacekeepers to rape children in Africa? It’s just UN money and Americans can say “nothing off my skin”? An amazing way to treat humanity, helen.

It is funny that while these taxes are “public monies”, the public aren’t the ones that decide where it goes. Congress does that and only a few people vote for Congressmen and only for their own. So can the Congressmen of a district in one state refuse to provide tax money for the other districts or can anyone use tax money for their own enrichment simply because it is the public trough from which anyone, with power and connections, and make use of it?

This is not a very equal or fairly competitive system you have imagined.

And we don’t even know what we got for it.

Why would an individual want to keep track of other people’s bank accounts and money trails? So why would individual Americans wish to keep track of public monies when it ain’t their own? Logic is not your forte, it seems.

As to the n- word, white people need to use it NEVER, and black people need to police it themselves. I am not so much concerned with black people’s actions as I am white people’s actions.

Most Republicans and all classical liberals will never accept double standards, a “separate but equal” political or philosophical policy. Not and think it will create equality at the same time. We accept double standards if we either can’t change them or if changing them would be counter-productive. We will not accept a separate but equal policy as national policy to create “an even playing field”, for it will not create an even playing field and is thus counter-productive.

P.S.

By way of explanation, I had every intention of replying to Mike’s comment today. We’d been commenting back and forth for almost two hours and also the previous day (here and on another thread), and I thought it was time for a break.

This doesn’t really concern me either was, and was not a subject I gave much care to.

June 26, 2008 at 5:50 pm

helenl

Hi Y., So glad you dropped by. Thanks for your comment. Feel free to come back often.

See “Epiphany” for a further explanation. Chain gone. LOL

June 27, 2008 at 1:53 pm

ymarsakar

I came to present another argument from Bookworm room, the site which constantly probes your beliefs with logic and fact checking.

In no way fashion or form will we accept evil as the solution to evil. In no way or fashion of form will we accept separate but equal. In no way or path to hell and heaven will we accept racism as the solution to racism.

June 27, 2008 at 9:27 pm

helenl

Hi Y., Give it a break. You don’t know what racism is.

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Just Try To Tell Me This Isn’t Racism

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